How do you evolve your firm with design? with Gail Doby

Transcript

[00:00:00] 

[00:00:27] Gail: Hi, I’m Gail Doby with Pearl Collective, and I help, um, firm owners actually grow their businesses, make more money and enjoy their life 

[00:00:36] Karin: more. Oh, I like that intro. I think, you know, those are goals. , pretty much everybody wants , uh, you know, just en enjoy your life more. How can you argue with that? Uh, so Gail, thank you for being here.

[00:00:50] This is a great conversation because I love talking about design. Design is kind of where I started my career way back. Um, , you know, [00:01:00] a few years ago, and, um, lately we’ve been having a lot of conversations about strategy and tactics like SEO and things like that. But I wanted to get back to the core of what makes things different and how you do all of that stuff, and how, how to kind of implement the, the core of what I think, uh, comes back to differentiation.

[00:01:23] Design. Um, so today we’re gonna talk and answer, talk about, and answer the question, how to evolve your firm with design. And I know you have a lot of different, um, angles and approaches to this with the, both the clients that you coach and you have a book. So let’s start. 

[00:01:43] Where should we start? How, where do we even begin with design

[00:01:47] Gail: Well, you know, it’s interesting because a lot of people don’t necessarily think that design is a serious. Topic. Yes. And they don’t consider the design is one of the critical decisions because that’s the first [00:02:00] impression people have of you. Yeah. Is what is visually displayed about your brand. So if you do not have a great visual for your brand, then you’re not going to attract the.

[00:02:12] the attention or the clients that you’re looking for. So in my opinion, designers is the first impact of yes, what somebody sees if they’re going to do business with you, whether it’s graphic design or website design, whether it is the words that you use to describe your brand, that’s all part of that. So, to me.

[00:02:31] We’re talking about evolving your firm, but we’re also talking about evolving your brand. Yes. And every single person that listens on this podcast has a brand. Yes. You have a personal brand whether you realize it or not, and that personal brand is attached to so much more than just the visuals. . So, uh, we’re gonna get to this later.

[00:02:52] Yeah, my, one of my favorite books, but I really do believe that we have to, as people who own our [00:03:00] firms and who are, are running successful businesses, we need to think about how we are being perceived by other people on the outside, outside of what we think about ourselves. So I think that’s really important and you have to grow in order for your brand to grow.

[00:03:14] So if you don’t evolve, your brand doesn’t evolve, and you also do not evolve in the. Clients that you’re attracting? 

[00:03:20] Karin: Yes. So this, this just reminded me of this little, um, battle that I had way back. I originally started writing blog posts on this website called Lawyerist, and I was writing about marketing for lawyers.

[00:03:34] And uh, it was way back when blogs were just kind of, you know, a lot of contributors. Just throwing things up. And this lawyer, uh, made a comment. I was talking about logos and branding and how your brand is not just a logo. And, um, so this, I got this comment that this was all just a bunch of fluff, totally unnecessary that his logo never, like he doesn’t have a logo.

[00:03:58] And not only that, that never [00:04:00] stopped anybody from hiring him. And he just, he just went, I, I can’t even remember the exact words because it got really negative and to the point where like a moderator had to sta step in and say, could you back down a little bit? Like, this is, we’re talking about logos. Um, but so as the kind of devil’s advocate, what.

[00:04:20] What’s happening for these people? So you, you mentioned a minute ago that even if you don’t realize it, you’ve got a, a brand and you’ve got this reputation out there. 

[00:04:28] What happens when someone hasn’t put the thought and the work into developing that brand? Uh, what, what’s happening out there? . 

[00:04:35] Gail: Well, that’s a great question,

[00:04:37] And, um, one of the things, Karin, that, uh, you and I chatted about before we got started today was that we’re on our third brand. Yeah. We just launched our third brand. And I would say that we have now evolved into what we really believe that we do well and, uh, our first two brands, were not who we are. we have changed dramatically as a company.

[00:04:59] [00:05:00] Yeah. And so we had one brand for about eight years. Yeah. And then we had another brand for about, uh, seven years. And so now we’re launched our third brand. And that was very intentional and very deliberate in what we were doing because we realized that. for us to attract the right kind of clientele that we had to have a brand that related to the people and that the people could identify themselves working 

[00:05:27] Karin: with us.

[00:05:28] Yes. Oh, I think that is so important that it’s not about you, it’s about the people you’re trying to attract. . 

[00:05:36] Gail: Exactly. Yeah. So what I think a lot of people don’t understand is that in order for you to attract the right kinds of clients, you need to understand the motivations behind why people hire you.

[00:05:47] Yeah. And so one of the first things, and I I love this. I was hearing this from. , Darren Hardy just about a week ago, and I thought it was so incredibly interesting, is that people really do a hundred percent make [00:06:00] decisions emotionally and not rationally. Yes. And so you have to understand that every person that comes to you, um, if they have a really pressing need, you have.

[00:06:11] probably a likely buyer of your services, but if they are just considering hiring you, so for example, maybe you’re an attorney that does contract law. Yeah, they could hire anybody to do contract law. But what makes you different? Why are you special? And what is it that you do for them that nobody else does for them as an attorney?

[00:06:31] So if you were thinking about the fact that this is about you, it’s not about. . Yeah. The brand is about your connection with a person that’s going to engage in your services. 

[00:06:42] Karin: Yes. Yes. So what is happening in the example of, um, the, the guy who kind of went to battle with me after on that blog post? Yeah.

[00:06:52] And let’s say he has no, he may not have even had a website at that point, cuz this was years ago. Um, but he definitely had no branding, [00:07:00] no logo. If he had a website, it was, you know, Business card on a, on a webpage. Mm-hmm. . So what’s happening in the mind if we are making these decisions emotionally? And I absolutely believe that one of my favorite books of all time is Predictably Irrational.

[00:07:15] Have you read that book? Oh, yes. So good. There’s so many good examples that just like blow your mind about the way we think and make decisions. Uh, and I could talk about that all, all day. , I will digress, . But, um, so we are making these emotional decisions. What’s happening in the case of someone who’s considering hiring that guy, he lands on the page, there’s, it’s just bare bones, no logo.

[00:07:40] Gail: Why would he trust that person? Yes, because here’s the thing, you have to create an emotional, uh, reaction from the visual of them coming to your website. Yeah. They’re not gonna necessarily read a lot, but they want to look. Someone who looks as if they can do a great job for you. Yeah. [00:08:00] So you have to be thinking about and shifting your thinking from what we were talking about a few minutes ago, Karin, which is that you must get away from thinking about yourself.

[00:08:09] Yeah. This is not about you. Yeah. And um, if you don’t understand that, then your ego’s in the way. I’m sorry for being direct, 

[00:08:18] Karin: but it’s so true. Yes, 

[00:08:20] Gail: absolutely. Yeah. You think you’re more important than your client, and if you think you’re more important than your client, they may or may not hire you. So, right.

[00:08:27] How do you shift that thinking for yourself? And, um, this gets into that idea of evolving who you are as. , uh uh, as an owner of your firm, you must evolve as a person that understands that people make emotional decisions. Yes. So if that’s the case, and I love this other piece that I got from this class of Darren’s about a week ago, and it was talking about the different levels of how people make decisions.

[00:08:53] And so there’s the one dec decision level, which is. The, the head and attorneys typically [00:09:00] are in the head. Yeah, very analytical thinking about security and safety. Those are two of the things, analytical things, so you’re making rational decisions, but again, if you are speaking to that particular place of the brain for the people that you’re trying to attract and, and have hire you, then you’re missing the boat here, because that’s probably not the way that they’re really making that decision.

[00:09:23] Yeah. So, um, the second level is more of the heart level, which is acceptance, uh, acceptance and belonging, and all those things that are a little bit more touchy-feely, which probably would not appeal to your audience . Right. And the third level. is the growing level. And I know this sounds really interesting and I’m, I’m just, I was just so fascinated with hearing this because it’s about ego significance, it’s about being, uh, head of the pack in the hierarchy.

[00:09:52] It’s about all those things that are important. So if you could imagine, today is a perfect day to talk about it. I don’t know when this is gonna [00:10:00] air, but it’ll be after today. Right. But, um, today’s election, So election day, guess what? A lot of people are making very emotional decisions to select their their next leaders, and that when they don’t know what else to do to make a decision, they’re going to rely on their emotions and not have.

[00:10:19] Karin: Yes, absolutely. Yes. Okay. So you mentioned that you’ve gone through these three, uh, well, you’ve had three different brands. Yes. You’ve gone through two different rebrands. You’re on your third brand now. Yes. I’ve also gone through a few different variations. Uh, I think this is. Just kind of, it, kind of like life itself.

[00:10:38] You know, we are all not the same people we were when we were 12 or whatever other age. Um, so first of all, 

[00:10:45] why is that important to, to kind of take a look at where you’re at and recognize that it’s not a permanent decision. . No, it’s not 

[00:10:54] Gail: permanent. And this also is going to be a little bit on the edge [00:11:00] for our listeners, but when you really think about it, a lot of listeners probably have their firm names in their name.

[00:11:08] Yes. And so that was the reason we shifted away from my firm name and into a name that. who we are now. Yeah. And where we’re going in the future of our business. And in fact, that was a really interesting decision. We went to a branding company about two years ago. It’s taken us two years to get it launched because we wanted to take our time.

[00:11:29] This is a big, big, big move. Yes. And so two years ago when we talked to him, he said to us, , have you considered taking your name off the business because you’re looking at succession planning for your business? Yeah. And so down the road, is this really the name that you should have on your business? And I said, Okay, I’m open to it.

[00:11:49] Yeah, so, and he was right. And so what we did is we took a long time to think about it, and then we took a long time to execute because we knew that we had to make a big shift in who [00:12:00] we were and how we were presenting ourselves to the clientele that we were trying to attract. Yeah. So, in order to grow and in order to scale your business.

[00:12:09] And we have a good sized business. Um, and we have several coaches on our team. We have a lot of people on our team. And so because of that, it’s not all me anymore. Yeah. So if you have your name on the business, then they’re wanting you. Yes. And so if you continue to brand yourself that way, and uh, also design your brand around you person.

[00:12:31] it may not fit the evolution of your 

[00:12:33] Karin: company, right? Because then when they’re not getting you, they feel like that’s not what they bargain for. And there’s a disconnect there. And yes. Uh, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I know there are a few states, um, in the past that w where clients, we’ve had clients where they had a requirement for having the last name in part of the firm name.

[00:12:55] I wanna say they’re mostly in the south, but I am, I’m not a hundred percent on, on. [00:13:00] But there’s, there’s been ways to work around that. And, um, so in, in terms of the way that that works, we, I typically take it one case at a time, but I usually recommend if there’s a way to be more creative with your name within the confines of the requirements of your state bar.

[00:13:19] Of course, course. Always gonna be a better marketing move because it’s more memorable. It’s less, less the assumed answer. And what if your last name is like Miller and there’s like 75 of you within a three block, you know, area. So, um, so yeah, trying to take your own name for all the reasons you described, but also from a competitive standpoint is, is usually a better.

[00:13:50] Gail: So I’m gonna make a statement, and, and this may or may not resonate with the listeners and also with you, but Karin, the, you know, the reality is, is [00:14:00] that we really, people don’t care about us, right? They care about what their needs are, and so, , our job absolutely is to stand out for other people to be able to make a, a quick decision.

[00:14:11] So we’re trying to speed up the decision process. And so trust is a big deal and how you’re coming across in your design and also the, the verbiage that you use on your side is gonna be really important to that. So you have to be very intentional about where you’re. with your business and have that, um, thought process that you are trying to create something that stands separately and that people can quickly make a quick decision emotionally about why they should work with you.

[00:14:41] Yeah. 

[00:14:41] Karin: That’s something like you said, I’ve had a lot of clients push back on that, you know, for, for the exact reasons you’ve described. Cause their ego is getting in the way, but especially when it comes to, um, their bio pages and they’re talking about themselves and they wanna put. Every matter they’ve ever, [00:15:00] uh, you know, litigated going back the last 15 years.

[00:15:04] And just this is, that is an ego exercise because no one is gonna read all of that and just imagine you being that potential client. Why would I care about all of those cases? You’re making a point that you’ve done these cases. Okay. You made point made like move, move on. You don’t need to say it 700 times.

[00:15:25] Gail: Well, they’re looking at it that people are making decisions based on credibility. Of course, credibility is important. You can have a place to put all of your credentials, that’s great, but connect with where. people are going to use as a decision process to select you over someone else. That’s where you really need to start, and that does not happen from an attorney writing in legalese, right?

[00:15:48] On our website. It comes from a great copywriter that understands the differentiating of the brand and how to bring that out for the person. So there’s a lot to it. So design [00:16:00] is. Is more than just the visual is also the verbal part or the, um, the part that describes what you’re doing. So yeah, all of those pieces are essential 

[00:16:11] Karin: in, yeah.

[00:16:12] Yeah. And I mean, just to clarify, in no way do I mean that you shouldn’t. Express your experience and how you’ve got this expertise and that you’ve done all these kinds of cases and you know how to do this work, but it gets belabored pretty quickly and there is, it is a subtle art to make sure that you’re saying it in a way that that really resonates with the user and doesn’t just resonate with your.

[00:16:39] Gail: I think telling stories is a great way to get the point across that Testimonials are great. Yeah. And if you can share a testimonial about the results that you’re getting for people, we have that all over our website. We have case studies and we have testimonials from people because. , that’s, people really do make decisions based on [00:17:00] what other people say and not what the person says about themselves.

[00:17:03] Yes. So that’s a critical distinction that I think is really important. Long, it took many years to learn . Yeah. Myself. But it It’s not about you. Yeah. It is not about you. 

[00:17:15] Karin: Yeah. And if you picture like the Amazon, an Amazon product, and you’re looking at, you know, this whatever widget, and you look at it, you read the description.

[00:17:24] and that kind of goes into this neutral part of your brain. Okay? There’s the thing, this is the specific specifications, but then when you really start to make that decision and be convinced is as you scroll down through those reviews mm-hmm. , and that’s where you’re like, oh no, there are way too many.

[00:17:41] Reviews saying that it showed up broken or it absolutely did not work, or, oh my gosh, this thing will work. This is gonna be a life changer. Or, you know, whatever people are saying. But that’s, that’s the same for your, the people who are visiting your site. 

[00:17:54] So let’s go back to this idea of this evolution of your brand and [00:18:00] how you continue to, um, review it.

[00:18:03] And what, what is that process like? Since you’ve gone through it twice, how do you know when it’s time and then, and then what does that look. 

[00:18:12] Gail: All of us have goals for ourselves, I would think. Yeah. Or we have it whether we state them or not. But if we have a desire, so say for ex example, the people that are listening today are wanting to grow their firm to multi cities and they want to have hundreds of people working on their staff, then that’s a different firm than somebody who’s working in a small town and.

[00:18:38] A small law practice that’s serving people that are getting divorced. Yeah. Um, so you have to look at who are you and what is that brand, um, image that you’re trying to convey that is gonna connect with a person that’s likely to hire you. And of course, in the end, people are looking for. Recommendations to your brand.

[00:18:57] So they’re going to compare you based [00:19:00] on what they see that others are saying about you. So having that third party endorsement or having some sort of, um, mentions or testimonials on your side is going to help someone make a better decision about whether they should hire you or not. So you can imagine that somebody that’s going through, say, a bankruptcy yeah, they could go to a website.

[00:19:20] and they’re embarrassed about the fact that they’re in a bad situation. So they go to a, an attorney and they want somebody who has some compassion for their situation. Yes. They don’t wanna go into meet with that attorney and feel like they’re gonna be treated like they are, uh, dirt because of their situation.

[00:19:38] Yes. So you have to make that person feel comfortable and have them trust you. to retain you for your services. So I think it’s really important that you think about where are you going, where are you going with your business? Are you staying small or are you growing with the team? Do you want to have a, a whole slew of people working for you as attorneys and paralegals and all the people on the [00:20:00] team?

[00:20:00] And, um, and what is that goal for that long-term goal for yourself? And so you have to make some really big decisions about not. Where you wanna go, but how is that gonna impact you personally? Yeah. When you do this, because I don’t know too many attorneys that don’t work a hundred hours, so we Right.

[00:20:19] Exactly. When they own a firm, especially in the beginning years, and then later, maybe they, it gets better as they start bringing on team members. But honestly, gotta really look at what is, what’s my ultimate. 

[00:20:32] Karin: Yeah. So then, uh, my next question is how you, how that plays out in the visuals. And I have this example, um, that I use quite often when I can tell a project is th they don’t quite get how to appropriately use visuals in terms of the, the overall messaging.

[00:20:49] Years ago I worked with these two different attorneys who are both in a similar. Area , similar metropolitan region, which Rochelle remained nameless [00:21:00] and one really, they both did criminal. And one really understood the idea of connecting with their clients through the messaging on their site. And their messaging was all about the potential risks that were at stake for their potential clients and how they totally understand and and empathize.

[00:21:24] They use these really. Just striking black and white images of people who looked serious, but not too like angry or depressed or whatever the other guy. or girl, I’m, I will kind of try to keep just in case. Yeah. Started out as a public defender and decided to go, um, you know, out on their own and their site was all police tape and handcuffs and, yeah, I mean, just so as a potential, you’re, you’re the same client for both of those potential firms.

[00:21:58] You’re landing on the sites [00:22:00] and one of ’em is, You’re a criminal. And do you remember that time you got arrested? If you don’t remember it, here’s a picture of handcuffs to remind you. And if you don’t remember it, here are the, here’s the police tape and the, you know, pictures of the spinning, uh, sirens and all of that.

[00:22:15] Um, and then you click over to the other site and it’s, I understand that was probably the worst day of your life. And this is not who you are. I’ve done this before. I can help you through that. Get, you know, to the light at the end of the tunnel. All all those great messaging. Yes. And guess who was still in business two years later?

[00:22:32] like, it seems so obvious, the other guy went back to being a public defender, like within, yeah, I wanna say less than two years. And so it absolutely played out in the success of their firm. But also from the beginning I was like, I am not someone who just stays quiet about these things. I’m like, listen, I think you’re going down the wrong road.

[00:22:49] Here’s why. Here’s why I don’t think this is the right, you know, message. Um, and you know, it’s your call, it’s your website, it’s your, it’s your firm. And they’re like, okay, this is what I wanna do. Like, all right, [00:23:00] here we go, . Let’s see what happens. So how, how do you see that play out? Um, you know, in terms of like how you look at your visuals and take a look at, okay, maybe these images are stale or my brand is stale.

[00:23:14] How do you evaluate that to know if it’s, if, if it’s not on the right track, like you were saying, like you align it with your goals, but then how do you know? Well, 

[00:23:22] Gail: first of all, we are not very good judges of our own work, so sometimes we need to have somebody look at it who’s an expert. And so in the work that you do, of course you’re the expert that can look at it and say this, are you getting the calls you need?

[00:23:37] Are you getting the conversions from the calls? Because this is the, here’s the other thing. Every single person listening to this, you are a marketing firm that happens to sell legal services. Oh my 

[00:23:50] Karin: gosh. I love that . That is so good. 

[00:23:53] Gail: Yes, that was, that was my final point of the day for our 

[00:23:57] Karin: cat, but we’ll come back to it because I feel like that is [00:24:00] good enough to Yeah, we will definitely come back to that.

[00:24:02] Okay. 

[00:24:03] Gail: Okay. . If you are not thinking about why people are gonna choose you, then you are, you’re too wrapped up in your own ego . Yeah. I’m gonna just call like it’s absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. So you’ve gotta have somebody look at it from the outside that’s going to give you that honest opinion and say, if, if you are coming to somebody that to be an attorney for, you’ve been thrown in jail, you feel like it’s a wrongful suit.

[00:24:31] Who are you gonna go to? Somebody that you feel is going to make you feel worse about what you did? Yes. Or somebody who’s going to say, I have compassion for you. I care about you as an individual, and yeah, it didn’t go so well for you in that situation, but I can help you with this. Yes. So we need to look at what is the hope, what is the fear?

[00:24:51] What is the desire? What is the aspiration of your person that is coming to your website? So they have an avatar, and I’m sure you talk to your people [00:25:00] about having some sort of a defined avatar of the person that’s coming to you. How old are they? Yeah. Um, what is their background? What are the things that they think about?

[00:25:09] What are their fears? What are the things that, um, are important to them in their. Yeah. And of course it could be different cuz , you could have somebody who’s a gang member, so Sure. As being at the top of the heap Yeah. In your gang. So it, it’s, you know, you have to think about who is it you’re really trying to appeal to.

[00:25:27] So anyway, we’ve ta kind of talked around that issue of it’s really more complicated and so the, the brand and the visual and all of that has to evolve with your, your level of understanding of the people that you’re marketing to as you grow. 

[00:25:45] Karin: and before, last question before we get to the book review.

[00:25:48] Sure. Do you feel like these things have changed over the years? Because I feel like when I first started websites and marketing, we weren’t talking about avatars and ideal clients, and in [00:26:00] terms of messaging, it was, it was totally different. And so that alone tells me that, you know, GI gives, gives you the, the kind of, um, I don’t know what the words I’m looking for are, but it kind of gives you that, that direct.

[00:26:13] You have to kind of keep up with all of these changes at the same time? Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Uh, okay. So it is time for the book review , and um, I know you have a good one that ties in perfectly with what we’ve been talking about. So what’s the book that you, uh, have to recommend? 

[00:26:29] Gail: Well, it is about your future self, and this is with Dr.

[00:26:32] Ben Hardy. And this one is gonna be a stretch for a lot of people that are listening. Good. And, and it’s because I do believe that one of the things I’ve learned, and I’ve been on this planet for a few decades, um, one of the things I’ve learned is that, as we evolve as people and as we become more in tune emotionally with who we are, and as we understand what our goals and our aspirations are for ourselves, we become a better [00:27:00] business person, a better oh yes.

[00:27:01] Leader and a better, um, employer. Because as we grow personally, we also help to develop a culture within our company. We get in touch with what other people want, as well as what we want. , we can always get more done when other people are on board with what it is that we personally want. Yeah. But it’s only if we take care of what their needs are.

[00:27:24] Yeah. And so I, we have to evolve as human beings in order to be successful in business and in. Or whatever it is, the field that we’re talking about, right? Yeah, absolutely. 

[00:27:36] Karin: And I feel like early in my, uh, when I first started my own firm and early, you know, back in the early years, there’s so many things that get in the way of that success.

[00:27:46] Like you’re not just the ego that we’ve mentioned more than a few times already, but the fear. and the the worry, and when you’re not making as much in the beginning as you eventually hopefully are, um, those [00:28:00] decisions seem more critical. But then as you get comfortable and you know, have some confidence, then some of that, that other stuff that’s getting in the way starts to dissipate a little too.

[00:28:11] Gail: Well, the key is to be a great communicator and often attorneys are great communicators in front of the court. They know how to plead a case. They know how to present their their side, and they’re good at really helping their clients. . But I think the other thing is that sometimes they get really wrapped up in the head.

[00:28:32] Yeah. And they forget to connect at the heart level. And if you’re going to run a firm and grow and scale a firm, you have to connect personally with people. Yeah. And also that will help you grow. and attract more clientele as well. Yes. So it’s really, because that is the key for networking. And if you’re out, um, of course every single person is looking for referrals, right?

[00:28:57] Yeah. So even attorneys are looking for [00:29:00] referrals. They want more business. So yeah, who is going to get the referral? The person that really connects with the client. Right. 

[00:29:07] Karin: Or, or the referral source. Yeah. And like if the referral source thinks about two or three different potential attorneys, they know and they think, ah, I don’t really like that guy.

[00:29:17] He, he never really connected to me. He just seems sort of, you know, in his head all the time, versus this other person who, oh, they’re such a nice person. I really enjoy talking to them. Of course, that’s just the way that that decision’s gonna get made. So. 

[00:29:31] Gail: Yeah, because it’s really, it’s a trust thing that happens.

[00:29:35] Yeah. And if people don’t trust you, then they’re not going to refer you. It’s of course. . 

[00:29:40] Karin: Yeah. It seems so obvious, but you know, we see it all day every day, . It’s just like such a regular thing. Right. Uh, that’s such a great book. I’m definitely adding that to my list and, uh, we obviously will add it to the library as well so that everybody can find the link and, and go find that book.

[00:29:56] So we talked about this a little bit earlier and I said I was gonna bring it back [00:30:00] up, um, because it was such a good moment. But what’s, uh, what’s the one thing that you talked about earlier that you also know that that works? . 

[00:30:08] Gail: Yeah. Well, uh, the, the comment was, and this is me just paraphrasing it from somebody else that said it, and I don’t remember who or I would share that, but we are marketing firms that happen to, to provide the services that we.

[00:30:24] Sell, right? Yes. And so that’s the reality. And so in order for us to have enough revenue and enough business and enough income in our lives, and also for our firms, we must get really good at understanding that we’re a marketing firm. 

[00:30:42] Karin: Yes. Yes. And all you law firms out there are marketing firms that are selling law, law, legal services.

[00:30:50] Exactly. Yes. That is such a. Place to kind of lock your mindset into and shift your thinking [00:31:00] just slightly in terms of the way that you need to think about putting yourself out there. Oh, that’s, that’s a great place to, to end and a nice little. Kind of nugget for people to chew on for a little bit after the show.

[00:31:13] Good. So Gail Doby is the co-founder of Pearl Collective, which used to be called a few other things, but has evolved her brand through the thoughtful use of design and design strategy. And there’s so many good, solid. Recommendations through this, uh, episode. So definitely feel free to back up and, you know, find those, those great quotes.

[00:31:34] But we will also link to all of the resources in the book and, and her website and, uh, social media links and everything on the show page as well. Gail, thank you so much for this conversation. That was really, really a good one. 

[00:31:46] Gail: Karen, it was my pleasure being here. Thank you so much.

[00:31:49] [00:32:00]